Created attachment 3302 [details]
normal file, agreement in fields

this is a normal file from disc one of the box set that has agreement in TPE1 and TPE2, altho if TPE2 were blank it wouldn't matter.  the point is the two from this disc have agreement in their TPE1 fields, thus not grouped under VA.

Created attachment 3303 [details]
normal file, agreement in fields

ditto the first attachment.  this one and the first one are from the same CD of the BJ boxset.

Created attachment 3304 [details]
Disc 3, normal file, agreement in fields

this file is like the first two files from disc one, except it is from disc 3.  other than that, it is essentially the same.

its the next file that creates disagreement in the TPE1 field and causes the issue for this disc.

Created attachment 3305 [details]
Disc 3, ABnormal file, DISagreement in fields

b/c the TPE1 field disagrees with the TPE1 field of the other file from disc3, it will be grouped under VA.

if TPE2 was used to group the album, it would be under Billy Joel.

Thanks, will take a look and see what we can do for 7.1.

thx Andy.

just real quick, i had a typo in the first comment.  this sentence:

"i should also be able to override TPE1 by using TPE1 (for
grouping purposes)."

should obviously say "...override TPE1 by using by using TPE2..."

sorry for the mistake.

This is very much related to bug 6490.  My understanding after several very long threads on the forums was that Jim C was going to take this offline to figure out what was needed and come up with a proposal.  That was about two weeks ago.

well, JimC told me to take it to the developers forum and see if i could get anyone to fix it.  so thats where we are at now i think.

and btw, i could list a lot more related bugs.  i think there are many many issues with how SC7 handles mp3s that don't have user defined tags.

for instance, lets say we get the group by TPE2 option.  that would be a huge improvement, no doubt.  but if it was implemented such that it completely over-rode SC7 VA logic if TPE2 data was present, then all my soundtracks for instance, even though they are VA albums, would sort under S for soundtracks, or O for orignial soundtracks, etc, and you can see where this could get unwieldy quickly.

i'd either have to rename the TPE2 data, or remove it all together.  neither the best scenario.

so i think a further revision will be required.  perhaps something that allows the VA logic to recognize certain terms (optionally of course) as VA terms.

or, alternatively, maybe certain TPE2 terms could be ignored for grouping purposes.

allowing the SC7 user to define these terms in either case would be FANTASTIC.  (not unlike specifying the artwork filename, only this would be multiple terms)

Sorry, I think this should work exactly like iTunes or WinAmp do it, because that's what 90% of the people out there will expect.
And they, like me, will consider SC as broken (I can name a few that actually do, if you like) if it sorts one quarter of your music collection under "various artists", where it is NOT sorted alphabetically, actually not sorted at all.

I simply don't get, why "Swing as you're winning" by "Robbie Williams" shows up under "Various Artists" (the reason being there are some Tracks tagged as by e.g. "Robbie Williams & Nicole Kidman"). This is a mess and the single most annoying issue on SC, at least for me.

And I don't see an issue with generating an "sort by TPE2" that generates a sort oder like TPE2 - Artist - Year. In the end, you don't have to use it and you don't  have to remove any of the other sort options.

Oh, and another "referring" bug that is not quite new but still unresolved:
https://bugs-archive.lyrion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4633

The issue seems to be when browsing albums (not when browsing artists), see this forum post for more information:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=296572#post296572

correct.

in SC7, at home, then click albums, (NOT artists), then sort by artist, year, album.

i also use artwork/gallery view.

i assume this problem exists in other ways as well, (like sorting by artist, album; but not year) ...but the above is how i see it.  i click albums first b/c artists doesn't have a gallery view.

i also 'group comps together' and 'list albums by band.'

Album context currently will display a list of all albums where each album will appear exactly once.

That is correct behaviour when sorting by album name, and it also works when sorting by year.

I believe the issue being reported here is when sorting the album list by artist, because the artist name that is selected is sometimes not what is desired. This occurs when there is no album artist for albums with more than one main performer. The suggestion is to set an album artist tag, such that the albums are sorted under the album artist.

An option could be set that would cause the scanner to set the album artist role instead of band role when reading an id3v2.3 TPE2 tag.

The same issue occurs for Browse Albums sorted by genre, as there can be more than one genre per album.  At the moment, I assume SqueezeCenter would sort the album under the first genre it finds associated with songs on the album.  Sorting albums by genre is a really weird thing to do, especially because the genres are not even displayed in the list, so it's hard to interpret the list.

At least one person wants albums to appear under each artist role (main artist, band, conductor or composer) that is present on the album, such that an album would appear multiple times when sorting by artist.

This would be like browse artists > album heirarchy, but flattened out into one long list.

Phil,

please, i think that last post was a forum post, not related to fixing this bug.

the issue in this bug is clearly explained already in the earlier posts in this bug.  the VA logic is not over-riden by the TPE2 tag in the files, and therefore albums sort out of place in the view i specified.  there may be other concerns germane and related to this bug, but i can't specify them until this first issue is fixed.

i also am not convinced that the BAND field in SC7 would not ALSO need populated, b/c if it was not populated, i'm afraid the "list albums by band" function would no longer work, and so if the "list albums by band" option were picked, but not populated, it would use info from the ARTIST field and not the ALBUMARTIST field.  (if it DID use the ALBUMARTIST field if BAND was empty, then probably no problem would arise, but i don't think it would).

i could be wrong, but it needs to be considered, b/c if i can use TPE2 to sort, i ALSO need TPE2 to denote who the album is by to have agreement between displaying and sorting, and right now, "list albums by band" is done via the internal SC7 BAND tag.

can we please just concentrate on the bug issues in this bug.  thx.

There's no point posting anything about these problems anymore in the many various forum threads, because people are just arguing about it all too much.  I don't know why I'm still bothering;

I had posted in several threads a proposed solution to make the SC scanner read TPE2 as Album Artist instead of Band.  I asked you if you had documented that on your bug report and got no response, so I did it myself.

What I posted also included a short summary of other associated problems, and how SC currently works.  In what way is it not appropriate to this enhancement request (it's not a bug)?  It's all related, as any enhancement to get SC to work as you want it, is likely to break or only semi-fix what others want.

Making TPE2 work as if it means Album Artist, means you cannot have different content for both band and album artist roles. What would the point of "list albums by band" be, as such an album would be listed only by album artist instead.

Also TPE2 should not appear anywhere in the UI, eg as a sort option.  It should be described as the thing it represents.

>>Making TPE2 work as if it means Album Artist, 
>>means you cannot have different content for 
>>both band and album artist roles. What would 
>>the point of "list albums by band" be, as such 
>>an album would be listed only by album artist
>>instead.

i have tried to explain this many times.  i will try once again.

first of all, i am not asking for "different content" for both the internal SC7 BAND and ALBUMARTIST tags.  i am suggesting that TPE2 should fill BOTH OF THEM with the same exact TPE2 data.

right now, TPE2 IS USED to populate the BAND tag in SC7.  its what denotes who the album is by on the webpages the webUI generates.  (meaning, it does this when the "list albums by band" option is checked).

now, IF we were to no longer populate BAND with TPE2 data, but we were to populate ALBUMARTIST with TPE2 data, then what i think would happen is the albums WOULD sort in the right place, but denote the WRONG info for who an album is by.

meaning that if the SC7 internal BAND field was empty, "list albums by band" would be either a useless function, and/or would go back to uing the internal ARTIST field to denote who an album is by, NOT the ALBUMARTIST field which would now be populated.  yes, i am making an assumption, but its what i think would be likely.

please tell me you follow me now.

>first of all, i am not asking for "different content" for both the internal SC7
>BAND and ALBUMARTIST tags.  i am suggesting that TPE2 should fill BOTH OF THEM
>with the same exact TPE2 data.
I understand that; I'm saying that it shouldn't.

A band contributor role displays in SqueezeCenter as "Band: xxx" in song info.  If a user does not want to store band names and instead wants to use TPE2 to represent an album artist, it should not display the band role because they won't have any.  SqueezeCenter would instead be displaying an "Album Artist: xxx" item.  TO also display "Band: xxx" next to every album artist would just cause more bug reports.

>right now, TPE2 IS USED to populate the BAND tag in SC7.  its what denotes who
>the album is by on the webpages the webUI generates.  (meaning, it does this
>when the "list albums by band" option is checked).
>
>then what i think would happen is the albums WOULD sort in the right place, but >denote the WRONG info for who an album is by.
>
And I think that "list albums by band" would be redundant for you in this case, because you wouldn't have any band contributor role.  As you would now have an album artist instead of a band, you wouldn't have any need to have that setting ticked, because it should automatically list album by album artist (if there is a TPE2 set), otherwise by contributing artist.

i.e. an unticked "list albums by band" means "list albums by album", where album would be overridden by album artist if one was present for that album, which is what you want is it not?

So if a new setting was added for indicating if TPE2 means band OR album artist, it should always mean one OR the other.  "list albums by band" should be ignored /disabled if there's never going to be any bands in your library.

>>>>
And I think that "list albums by band" would be redundant for you in this case,
because you wouldn't have any band contributor role.  As you would now have an
album artist instead of a band, you wouldn't have any need to have that setting
ticked, because it should automatically list album by album artist (if there is
a TPE2 set), otherwise by contributing artist.

i.e. an unticked "list albums by band" means "list albums by album", where
album would be overridden by album artist if one was present for that album,
which is what you want is it not?

So if a new setting was added for indicating if TPE2 means band OR album
artist, it should always mean one OR the other.  "list albums by band" should
be ignored /disabled if there's never going to be any bands in your library.
>>>>

Phil,

if what you claim to be true is true, then i agree.  but i think you are guessing.

the problem is if i DON'T pick, "List albums by band" the alternative is "List albums by all artists for that album" not what you wrote above.

that means the ARTIST field.

perhaps you haven't "twigged" that its one or the other, i can't choose not to pick one, or untick it.  it has to be one or the other.

now, if when choosing "List albums by all artists for that album", it does in fact use ALBUMARTIST and not the ARTIST field, then fine, there is no problem.  but i need to SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT.

i think your second paragraph is all wrong, way way wrong.

This issue is getting to the point where I can't be bothered to read about it anymore... someone needs to step up and submit a patch.

>if what you claim to be true is true, then i agree.  but i think you are
>guessing.
Not, I'm not guessing, you were guessing because you haven't got album artist information yet.  Remember I already have album artist information in my library, and I also have Band information too.

So I tried it, and reported what truthfully happens now, and what would happen if it were changed as I think it should be.  Here's an example from my library:

Album: The Sleep Of Seeds
Album Artist: Alio Die & Saffron Wood
Track Artist: Alio Die, Saffron Wood 

When browsing Albums, sorted by "Artist, Album", with "list by band" radio button selected, I see album displayed in the list as being by "Alio Die & Saffron Wood".

>now, if when choosing "List albums by all artists for that album", it does in
>fact use ALBUMARTIST and not the ARTIST field, then fine, there is no problem.
>but i need to SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT.
Then stop guessing, and set a TXXX ALBUMARTIST tag on one of your albums and try it out.  If you are happy with the results, then I think we have agreement?

>i think your second paragraph is all wrong, way way wrong.
Not sure what para you are referring to.

Phil,

please, andy said no more of this in this thread!

please take the discussion back to the forums:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=299185#post299185

i will address the problems with your last post there.

Andy,

i hope you are still working on this?

i haven't had time to post in the last few weeks b/c i got married.  that excitement is over now, (insert joke here ;) and i wanted to revisit this issue.

i never wanted to tell you how to implement this goal, however, IF changing how TPE2 is scanned is how you were going to do it, then i say try HIS way first.

his way:

instead of having TPE2 populate the BAND field, have it [by option of course] populate ONLY the ALBUMARTIST field.

lets see if thats a good working solution.  if it is, then we can close this bug.  if not, then we can try having TPE2 populate BAND and ALBUMARTIST.  if thats no good, we can try a whole different approach, (some of which were mentioned earlier in the thread, like sorting by the BAND field)

thx for working on this.  -mdw

Please test 7.1 change 20508.

I've added a simple pref to the Music Library tab: Use TPE2 As Album Artist

This will map TPE2 to ALBUMARTIST instead of BAND if enabled.

This field defaults to the current behavior of TPE2 = Band.

Hopefully this is all that's needed to fix this bug.

Andy,

what a difference!

yes, now i get things properly sorted via the TPE2 data in my tags.  (i set group comps together and list albums by band as well, and no checkmarks in the boxes above those)

now, i still need more time to see if there are any anomalies or whatnot, but the first impression is very good and solid.

i did a clear and rescan with the option enabled.  i assume thats necessary, yes?  if so, you might want to add that info to the infobox.  and i would rewrite it like this:

"Some MP3 software uses the TPE2 field to mean Album Artist while others use it to mean Band. Select the meaning you would like SqueezeCenter to use.  This affects the sorting placement of the album in SC."

you also might want to make the option actually say "Treat TPE2 as Band" and "Treat TPE2 as Album Artist"

also, if someone is a new user, i think it makes sense to have TPE2 treated as Album Artist be the default.  perhaps a question asking about this point during setup is warranted?

i hope you don't mind those suggestions.  i am very happy that users without user defined tags can finally get properly sorted, thanks a lot for working on this.

having gotten over this hump, i hope you will check out erlands patch for bug 8324.  this is a related bug (enh) which affects how comps are detected.

the question i now have is twofold, since VA logic is still enabled, are some of my albums, rightly or wrongly, being classified as comps?  and if so, how can i tell that?

once erlands patch is enacted, i will be very interested to see if i am better off with or without VA logic enabled.  my guess is i will be better off without it, and if i want to ID comps as comps to SC, i will need a different, more fullproof method.

thx again Andy!

for clarities sake:

"Some MP3 software uses the TPE2 field to mean Album Artist while others use it
to mean Band. Select the meaning you would like SqueezeCenter to use.  This
affects the sorting placement of the album in SC.  A library clear and rescan is required."

...if in fact thats true.

Yes a full rescan is required.

Re: defaulting TPE2 to Album Artist.  This is a good question, it would help to know some stats on various tagging apps and how they work.

It should most definitely not be an option during setup, I would bet most people don't even know what TPE2 is.

i can't say i have official stats or anything like that, but i can tell you that winamp uses TPE2 as album artist.  i am also fairly sure that itunes and musicmatch, and WMP do as well.

in fact, my guess is almost all the "mainstream apps" do this.  but as snarlydwarf pointed out, they do this against the official spec.  in other words, they are misusing the field and instead creating an ad hoc defacto standard.

the argument against making SC treat TPE2 as album artist would be that there may be people out there using the field properly, and they would be confused at first.  (either way, one group or another has this problem of confusion at first, so to me its a question of which group is larger)

i firmly believe that any such people [using the field correctly] are also very likely to have user defined tags that specify album artist, (thus making themsleves moot, they'd have no problems, assuming those tags would take priority over this setting) ....and even if they didn't have user defined tags, they [the users using TPE2 'correctly' by spec] would be the small minority, greatly outnumbered in the marketplace by unsophisticated mp3 users like me who don't have user defined tags and who have been conformed by the mainstream apps misuse of the field.

jmho.

you are right most users of this type wouldn't know what TPE2 is.  so the question is would u address the issue at all during setup?  if you don't, you run the risk of confusing whatever group gets unexpected results.  maybe just an info screen saying something like "unexpected library results?  be sure to check the options page" or something like that.

"Some MP3 software uses the TPE2 field to mean Album Artist while others use it
to mean Band. Select the meaning you would like SqueezeCenter to use.  This
affects the sorting placement of the album in SC.  A library clear and rescan
is required."

I would not mention "sorting".  The effect is different depending on the way the user wishes to browse their library.

For some, "sorting placement" would cause confusion.  eg. Albums are grouped under the album artist in Browse Artist list.  It doesn't affect how albums are sorted in browse artist > album context.

I would also not mention TPE2 - most users will have no idea what that means.

In the spec, TPE2 means "The 'Band/Orchestra/Accompaniment' frame is used for additional information about the performers in the recording."

I suggest something like "Read MP3 Band tag as Album Artist".

The default should be to use TPE2 as "BAND", as this would otherwise affect existing users that already have working music libraries (people who use Band or Orchestra).

The majority of users do not use TPE2 tags for either reason, as most users get their tags from CD rippers or on-line tagging services which don't provide such information.  It's only relevant to people who have used tag editors to tag their libraries with the extra information.  If they go to that much bother (like I do!), they will know a little more about TPE2 tags and their interpretation by software applications.

Phil,

first, thanks for your help with this bug.  however, some of what you say is debatable:

>>>
"Some MP3 software uses the TPE2 field to mean Album Artist while others use it
to mean Band. Select the meaning you would like SqueezeCenter to use.  This
affects the sorting placement of the album in SC.  A library clear and rescan
is required."

I would not mention "sorting".  The effect is different depending on the way
the user wishes to browse their library.

For some, "sorting placement" would cause confusion.  eg. Albums are grouped
under the album artist in Browse Artist list.  It doesn't affect how albums are
sorted in browse artist > album context.
>>>

well, right, but 'browse artist' is 'artist,' not 'album artist.'

i don't necessarily agree that people would think that album artist data is for sorting in the artist list, rather than the album list.  BUT i have no problem then rewording it to say:

"Some MP3 software uses the TPE2 field to mean Album Artist while others use it
to mean Band. Select the meaning you would like SqueezeCenter to use.  This
affects the sorting placement of the album under the 'album listings' in SC.  A library clear and rescan is required."

>>>
I would also not mention TPE2 - most users will have no idea what that means.
>>>

i disagree strongly here.  TPE2 is already mentioned in the option above the new option for 8001, and while i agree that users might not know what it means, i think the context is enough for them to get it, and i also think it helps to get them educated.

besides, it is important for the documentation [infobox] to explain exactly what is going on under the hood.

>>>
In the spec, TPE2 means "The 'Band/Orchestra/Accompaniment' frame is used for
additional information about the performers in the recording."
>>>

agreed.  

>>>
I suggest something like "Read MP3 Band tag as Album Artist".
>>>

i strongly disagree here.  "treat" is more pro-active then "read" and most users won't know that "read" refers to the scanner.  

also, if u are an avg winamp user, you won't gather from your suggestion that what winamp calls album artist is what you are calling band above.

it needs a fuller context, more precise.

>>>
The default should be to use TPE2 as "BAND", as this would otherwise affect
existing users that already have working music libraries (people who use Band
or Orchestra).
>>>

i think you misread what i wrote.  the default being debated is the default for NEW users, not EXISTING users.  (existing should use TPE2 as Band as u said)

that point aside, i wonder how many users use TPE2 for that info?  is it possible that most users of that type use a user defined tag for that info, as they also do album artist?  just curious.

>>>
The majority of users do not use TPE2 tags for either reason, as most users get
their tags from CD rippers or on-line tagging services which don't provide such
information.  It's only relevant to people who have used tag editors to tag
their libraries with the extra information.  If they go to that much bother
(like I do!), they will know a little more about TPE2 tags and their
interpretation by software applications.
>>>

well, IF i understand you correctly, you're just totally wrong here.

if you are saying most mainstream apps do NOT use TPE2 or assign it a value when ripping a CD, you are just flat out wrong.  they do.  and the auto-taggers i have used of such apps also do.  winamp, itunes, musicmatch, WMP, afaik, all use TPE2 to mean album artist, (esp where popular music is concerned).

now, IF you are saying that most rippers don't assign a TPE2 value for actual orchaestras or accompanying bands, then yes, i agree that that support for that info is a lot more spotty.  however, these apps do get it right sometimes with classical, and even on rare occassion with big band.  but its not reliably consistent.

in any case...

i hope you see my point that even if a new user is using TPE2/Band correctly and has no user defined album artist tags, they would still be in a small minority of users in the marketplace, and therefore the default for new users should be treat TPE2 as album artist.

> the default being debated is the default for NEW users, not EXISTING users.

Actually, we can't distinguish new from existing users as this feature will be new for everyone.  So the default should probably stay as it is now, so existing users won't have their libraries broken.

ah, well, i didn't know that.  i sit corrected.  ;)  but i thought u could, and that was how i worded it.  

it's too bad this distinction can't be made, b/c i do believe its worthwhile.  i wonder how many existing users are using TPE2 correctly?

None of the above really matters now - you have an option that does what you need now, and the masses of other people who you predict that can't live without it will also be happy.  We are debating semantics of the option, and in my mind it needs to be clear - a description of what the option means for both possible settings.

The option has no effect on how the library is browsed, it has an effect on how the library information is read from files.

>well, right, but 'browse artist' is 'artist,' not 'album artist.'

Incorrect.  Browse Artist is the album artist if one is present on an album, otherwise artist.  It also includes band, composer and conductor if those tags are present.

>"Some MP3 software uses the TPE2 field to mean Album Artist while others use it
to mean Band. Select the meaning you would like SqueezeCenter to use.  This
affects the sorting placement of the album under the 'album listings' in SC.  A
library clear and rescan is required."

This is the specific problem that it is solving for you (sorting by artist in album listing context), but it's not the only place where the functionality would work differently.  That's the point I was getting at.  Generically what it really means is that TPE2 is interpreted as Album Artist which defines the artist that is associated with the collection of songs that make up the album.

I believe the majority of users have NO TPE2 tags.  The information is not available via freedb, which many tagging apps query to retrieve tags.  EAC does not write to TPE2 either.  Album Artist tag was only introduced in iTunes v6, so many people who ripped CDs before that time won't have TPE2 either.

I agree that there are probably more people who use TPE2 for Album Artist than they do for Band, but only people who have any TPE2 tags and only popular music.  Some of those people just live with it; some will have added new ALBUMARTIST tags to correct the library.

The vast majority of popular albums don't need an album artist either (all songs on an album are usually by the same artist, or the album is a compilation).  Album artist is only required when there is a guest artist on one or two songs, but you still want to be able to say that the album is by the primary artist and not a compilation.

Internet music tag source providers (such as freedb) do not generally support multiple artists on a single song, so they don't bother to include the guest performer with the primary artist on a track.

Oh, BTW I forgot to mention that I thought that settings that required a restart usually warn the user when the setting is applied.  So, perhaps changing this setting should cause a similar warning that a full rescan is required.

OK, we'll leave the default as-is and I may improve the wording.

Oh actually we can just automatically trigger a rescan when this option is changed, like some other options.

Wording updated a bit in change 20575.  Also will trigger a rescan if you change the setting.

I thought there was a move away from starting automatic rescans.  It's best to just warn the user that a rescan is necessary.  It's frustrating if the user wants to change several options, or is playing music and doesn't want the rescan to happen straight away, for example.

I don't know, there are several other prefs which trigger auto-rescans.  Not everyone may read the tooltip either.

I thought that there were options in the Default skin, that upon trying to apply a change warned that this would require a reboot.  There was then the choice to okay or cancel.  The user would then need to manually restart.  There was suggestions that an auto restart should happen, but it was too hard to do, and undesirable in some situations.

Rescan I think should fall into the same rules.  If the library is already being scanned and the option changes, will it attempt to do two scans or does it detect that there is an outstanding scan?  Would it stop the scan and start a new full rescan?

This is getting into a second enhancement request, why don't you file a new one. :)

This bug has now been fixed in the 7.1 release version of SqueezeCenter!  Please download the new version from http://www.slimdevices.com if you haven't already.  

If you are still experiencing this problem, feel free to reopen the bug with your new comments and we'll have another look.

*** Bug 6490 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Reduce number of active targets for SC

kind of curious as to why so many closed bugs are being "retargetted?"  this bug, like some others, is resolved; i find it confusing?