From: Greg Klanderman <gak@klanderman.net>
Subject: [SlimDevices: Beta] settings for "extras" confusing
To: beta@lists.slimdevices.com
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 12:38:57 -0500
Reply-To: Beta Testing <beta@lists.slimdevices.com>

Hi, I just upgraded to 7.0 running from an SVN checkout yesterday and
thought the developers might want this feedback - I find the settings
page for the "extras" to be very confusing.

When I first went to that settings page I thought the "Disable" and
"Enable" buttons indicated the current state rather than an offer to
change the state.  It would be a lot more clear to have a single
"enabled" checkbox for each plugin.  In fact all boolean options
should consistently use a checkbox.  Most do, however in the
"Interface" settings, "Show Artist with Albums" and "Show Year with
Albums" use an enabled/disabled pulldown menu.

cheers,
Greg

From: tamanaco <tamanaco.32d8wn1198953601@no-mx.forums.slimdevices.com>
Subject: Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] settings for "extras" confusing
To: beta@lists.slimdevices.com
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:38:24 -0800
Organization: Slim Devices Forums
Reply-To: Beta Testing <beta@lists.slimdevices.com>

I also find it bit confusing after selecting "Settings" for any of the
Extras (plugins) in the "Extras Tag". Once I click any of the settings
options it jumps to the "Advanced Tag" with all the Advanced options
listed in the left. The list of selectable options on the left and the
configuration page for the plugin have the same color background. Some
of these options also line up exactly with the configuration boxes in
the Extra's configuration page. Maybe adding a bit of background color
to differentiate the selectable list on the left from the descriptions
of the entries on the right might help. Also I don't understand why it
needs to jump to the Advanced Tag. Why not just a configuration page
with a save button that would take you back to the Extras Tab. I guess
there is some redundancy with the Advance and Extras tabs that make it
a bit confusing.

From: SadGamerGeek <SadGamerGeek.32dgjn1198963502@no-mx.forums.slimdevices.com>
Subject: Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] settings for "extras" confusing
To: beta@lists.slimdevices.com
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:24:47 -0800
Organization: Slim Devices Forums
Reply-To: Beta Testing <beta@lists.slimdevices.com>

I completely agree. The only way I could work out if it was reflecting
the current state or the state that would be set by pressing the
button, was when I realised that only the "Disable" buttons had
"Settings" next to them. If people have to look for other clues to the
meaning of a button (especially when the confusion is between two
complete opposites) something has gone awry with the interface design.

Either pulldown or checkbox is fine by me, but either would be a big
improvement on the current layout.

I've also noticed that clicking "enable" or "disable" on the Extras page seems to take effect even if I don't click "Apply".  Users might assume that navigating away from the page without clicking "apply" will cancel any changes.

It would also be nice if the Extras page had a "Restart Server Now" button.  Not sure how easy that would be to do cross-platform...

> When I first went to that settings page I thought the "Disable" and
> "Enable" buttons indicated the current state rather than an offer to
> change the state.  It would be a lot more clear to have a single
> "enabled" checkbox for each plugin

I've been saying the same thing for months.

(In reply to comment #4)
> I've also noticed that clicking "enable" or "disable" on the Extras page seems
> to take effect even if I don't click "Apply".  Users might assume that
> navigating away from the page without clicking "apply" will cancel any changes.

Settings in the Default skin has an extremely confusing mish-mash of pages that use Ajax to immediately save settings and pages that require the user to explicilty hit the 'Save' button (now labeled for some ungodly reason as "Apply").  It's impossible to know which settings are immediately saved and which are not.  Make them all require manual saving of settings to avoid the confusion.  Use Ajax where it's actually useful, not just for the sake of doing something different.

The "Apply" button on the Extras couldn't possibly be misnamed any worse.  You cannot "apply" the settings on the page without a server restart.

Brian: can you weigh in?

So I agree that we need to add checkboxes for each plugin.  We shouldn't apply these changes until the "Apply Changes" button is pressed, which will automatically restart the server.  Would that be a problem if the user is currently in a scan?  If not I think we should just go ahead and restart rather than telling the user they need to restart.

Also, instead of a button for settings, we should make it a text hyperlink, which generally implies that pressing the link will jump you to a different page, which is what is going on.  Currently, when you jump to the settings of a plugin, then press "back", it'll go back to the list of extras but the tab will say "Advanced".  We should change that to
 be "Extras".

> So I agree that we need to add checkboxes for each plugin.  We shouldn't apply
> these changes until the "Apply Changes" button is pressed, which will
> automatically restart the server.

I doubt restarting the server is easily done. Take eg. the Windows user, running SC as a service. A default user is not allowed to start/stop services. Even the user which is running the server as a service can't do it by default. 

I'm not sure about Linux, but I assume it's similar: only root can restart services, but SC can't be run as root. Thus the squeezecenter very likely may not start itself.

We'd have to come up with some helper task, which is monitoring the service and would restart it automatically when it's shut down.

> Would that be a problem if the user is currently in a scan?

We should be able to manage the scanning process. That's another enhancement request somewhere.

> Also, instead of a button for settings, we should make it a text hyperlink,
> which generally implies that pressing the link will jump you to a different
> page, which is what is going on. 

I planned to do this for 7.0.

> Currently, when you jump to the settings of a
> plugin, then press "back", it'll go back to the list of extras but the tab will
> say "Advanced".  We should change that to
> be "Extras".

That's the ugly world of JS navigation :-(. But I'll see what I can do.

(In reply to comment #8)
> So I agree that we need to add checkboxes for each plugin.  We shouldn't apply
> these changes until the "Apply Changes" button is pressed, which will
> automatically restart the server.  Would that be a problem if the user is
> currently in a scan?  If not I think we should just go ahead and restart rather
> than telling the user they need to restart.

I have no idea how easy it is to do the autorestart, but if it is implemented I still suggest making it an option.  IMO, the issue isn't scanning, but what if the user is currently listening to something.  I'd suggest that after pressing Apply, the user gets a dialog box that says something like "SC must be restarted for these changes to take effect.  Restart NOW or LATER"

> 
> Also, instead of a button for settings, we should make it a text hyperlink,
> which generally implies that pressing the link will jump you to a different
> page, which is what is going on.  Currently, when you jump to the settings of a
> plugin, then press "back", it'll go back to the list of extras but the tab will
> say "Advanced".  We should change that to
>  be "Extras".

I've also noticed that certain 3rd party plugins that have player settings (including MusicInfoSCR), have a settings button on this page that does nothing.  Not sure if this is a bug in SC or the plugins.

I think "Restart now or later" makes a lot of sense if in fact we can pull of a restart

michael is right about the services.  restarting in linux has to be done by root and we probably do not want a javascript dialog box having root/admin access on any system.

> I've also noticed that certain 3rd party plugins that have player settings
> (including MusicInfoSCR), have a settings button on this page that does
> nothing.  Not sure if this is a bug in SC or the plugins.

Tell that plugin author to fix his stuff :-). But in this case it does work for me.

As for the plugins settings in General. They're no basically in Advanced or Player (if it's a per player preference page). This seems to confuse people and break browser navigation as pressing the button/link in the Extras page will jump around the UI to these other places. I see two ways to change this:

- Leave as is, but fix the navigation: People who go to Extras will still be confused. But Users who don't care about what an Extra is will find player settings under Player, others in Advanced

- Stay within the Extras page, removing the plugins from Player/Advanced, adding a "Back" button to get back to the plugins list: easier navigation, but confusing People who don't care about whether a setting is provided by a plugin or not. They will still be looking for them under Player and/or Advanced

KDF wrote:
> restarting in linux has to be done by root

Why can't the server just exec a fresh copy of itself?

So based on this discussion, can I assume the enable/disable buttons currently have no effect until the user manually restarts the server?

> So based on this discussion, can I assume the enable/disable buttons currently
> have no effect until the user manually restarts the server?

Yes.

(In reply to comment #13)
> Tell that plugin author to fix his stuff :-). 

:) Funny enough, the other plugin I noticed this problem with is kdf's Extended Alarm.

< But in this case it does work for
> me.

Hmm.  Clicking on the Extras->Settings button still does nothing for me for either MusicInfoSCR or Extended Alarm.  I have to click the Players tab to get there.  This is FF2 on Ubuntu.

> As for the plugins settings in General. They're no basically in Advanced or
> Player (if it's a per player preference page). This seems to confuse people and
> break browser navigation as pressing the button/link in the Extras page will
> jump around the UI to these other places. I see two ways to change this:

I guess I prefer this one.  If it really confuses people too much, you could just get rid of the settings buttons from the Extras page.

> < But in this case it does work for me.
> 
> Hmm.  Clicking on the Extras->Settings button still does nothing for me for
> either MusicInfoSCR or Extended Alarm.  I have to click the Players tab to get
> there.  This is FF2 on Ubuntu.

What MIS version?

> I guess I prefer this one. 

Which one did you mean?

> If it really confuses people too much, you could
> just get rid of the settings buttons from the Extras page.

Oh no, we've been there... had to add them back.

(In reply to comment #17)
> What MIS version?

?  MIS version?  This is FF 2.0.0.11 on Ubuntu Gutsy.  All JS options are enabled and any Settings links that go the the Advanced tab work fine.

> Which one did you mean?

Heh, I quoted the wrong chunk of text, sorry.  Option 1.

> Oh no, we've been there... had to add them back.

Ah, I must've missed that.

(In reply to comment #16)
> (In reply to comment #13)
> > Tell that plugin author to fix his stuff :-). 
> 
> :) Funny enough, the other plugin I noticed this problem with is kdf's Extended
> Alarm.

except that it works with fishbone skin, so it would seem to be a default skin issue, namely the JS that triggers the settings page to load?

change 16035 addresses the player settings button problem.

change 16161
- no more confusing tab change when jumping to a plugin's settings
- use checkbox instead of buttons
- use textlink 

please give it some testing

Some feedback from the forums (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=41504). Mitch G said:

Well, I don't think I like the change to this page.
I didn't really have a problem with the enabled/disabled buttons, but I understand the issue.
So, the checkbox approach is good, but I personally think the check box should be placed just to the left of the plugin name instead of across the ways to the right. It makes it clearer that the checkbox is how you enable or disable the plugin.
At least I think so. 
 
Also, I preferred the button for "settings" as opposed to the somewhat subtle underlined hyperlink. 
(This is all when using the default skin.)
 
 
Mitch
 

...to which Dean replied:

I agree.
 
I suggest that Settings become buttons again and the checkboxes be  
marked as:  "[] Enabled".
 
I also think that the descriptive text should be shown as a tooltip  
on an info icon.
 
Finally, these are Plugins.  Plugins sometimes add new functions to  
Music Services, Settings, Extras, other places or invisibly.  Can we  
change the name back?
 
Sorry for the thrashing...
 

...and I say:

Somebody please come up with a definite draft. We're wasting time going back and forth (link -> button -> link -> button again) and seem to lack the big picture. We all have great ideas on how this should look. But we do not always agree with the others great idea.

As I'm sure you all have some application which allows you to draw forms (any office app would do this), I'd be happy to see drafts for this screen (only the plugins specific part) respecting the following parameters:

- plugins can have a description, no description, or a useless description which is identical to the plugin name

- plugins can have settings or not

- plugins can be disabled, enabled or enabled but not loaded ("needs reboot")

Thanks!

Created attachment 2651 [details]
extras > plugins

it's getting a bit late in the game to be wavering on something like this.  We're wasting time going back and forth over this and many other things.  This is one part I truly hate about this project.  Yes, some things change, but they change for good reasons. 

Frankly, I no longer care who has what credentials and thinks which is best 'for the people' lets pick something and move on to other tasks, please.

attached is a patch to revert Extras.  note that some never changed from being plugins (an indicator of just how painfully massive a simple word change can end up being).  Let's try to avoid the stupid last minute changes :)

It's better than it used to be with the buttons, but it still could do with a bit of a tidy up.

With the checkboxes, it is instantly more obvious that plugins are either enabled or disabled.  However, the text next to the plugins is quite untidy; if there are no settings, the text starts next to the checkbox and wraps to the next line.  The text should always start under the checkbox, and if there are settings associated with the plugin, the link should be right of the checkbox.

Even better would be to put the text in a mouse-over info box, to be consistent with other settings pages.

Clicking the settings links looks a bit wrong too. This opens the same page as if navigating from advanced settings, but appears as part of the extras tab, so it may look to a new user as if there are two sets of settings pages for each plugin.

I think the plugin settings belong solely on the plugin screen, as they are, but are really confusing also having them on advanced settings tab list, so just remove them from there.

However, the settings pages could do with some form of Back button to get back to the extras list.  Maybe something on the left-hand side, such as the name of the plugin settings page, with the plugin description, and a back to extras link.

> I think the plugin settings belong solely on the plugin screen, as they are,
> but are really confusing also having them on advanced settings tab list, so
> just remove them from there.

Please go through the various postings and you'll see why this won't work: we've got player settings, too. And we've got plugins with both of them. I'd rather remove them from the Extras page all together, as it's always broken when linking from here to the plugins' page. Only the plugin author knows where he wants to display settings pages.

But we've been there before. We're looping.

I'm adding some requirements to the list:

- plugins can have a description, no description, or a useless description which is identical to the plugin name

- plugins can have settings or not

- plugin settings can be server wide, per player, or both

- plugins can be disabled, enabled or enabled but not loaded ("needs reboot")

Any suggestions are welcome. But please make sure we haven't been there already and have changed it because someone else thought it was wrong. If you still want to do so, keep some very good reasons ready to convince the other. And again: not some old reason we've had before and were not convincing enough. :-)

Seriously: I don't want suggestions for one single item (button, link, description, setting...) any more, but only suggestions which covers them all.

Sorry, I obviously haven't seen all of the various postings/bug reports/private conversations.  I can only comment on what bits of info I have read.  Anyway, I was just responding to the call in the forum for opinions to be added to this bug report.

I don't see why player settings makes any difference whether they are items in extras or items advanced settings list (same difference or problem, is it not?). Player Settings have always only been on the player settings page and server plugin settings have always been in extras (and for SC7 also in Advanced) settings.  Changing the hyperlink name for each extra on the extras tab to "server settings" (or a less technical word than server, that I know you are trying to avoid) would make that clearer.

Having read some of the previous posts in this report, I also agree that you shouldn't bother trying to do an automatic restart of the server if the settings have changed.  By all means display an alert that the server needs to be manually restarted for changes to take effect.  However, there's so many different ways that the server can be installed, configured, etc, that trying to restart may not work, and could in fact end up restarting the wrong version.

change 16245 - strings change. Will have to explain this in the forums...

good luck :)

change 16287 - this is how it's going to look in 7.0. Love it or hate it.

There's now an additional "needs reboot to take effect" text displayed with _every_ enabled/disabled plugin, if SC has not been restarted.

(In reply to comment #32)
> change 16287 - this is how it's going to look in 7.0. Love it or hate it.
> 

OK, but 2 comments:
1) The settings link is only displayed for enabled Plugins.  I assume this is intentional.
2) The tooltip balloons contain checkboxes that appear to do nothing.  This seems like a bug.

Thanks for the feedback. That's a bug indeed. And yes, the link is displayed for items which have their own settings page only.

(In reply to comment #34)
> And yes, the link is displayed
> for items which have their own settings page only.
> 

Just to clarify, I'm referring to the fact that the settings link is missing when the plugin is disabled.  I think you know what I meant, but that's not what you said above...

change 16349

re. the link: now I do understand. But that's expected behaviour, isn't it? Settings won't be available before the plugin is loaded.

(In reply to comment #36)
> change 16349
> 
> re. the link: now I do understand. But that's expected behaviour, isn't it?
> 

I'm not sure, but I don't feel strongly either way.  I just wanted to point out that it was a change not discussed here so I wasn't sure it was intentional...

This bug is being closed since it was resolved for a version which is now released!  Please download the new version of SqueezeCenter (formerly SlimServer) at http://www.slimdevices.com/su_downloads.html

If you are still seeing this bug, please re-open it and we will consider it for a future release.