Bug 11193 - Serious wireless connectivity problems specific to Draytek routers
: Serious wireless connectivity problems specific to Draytek routers
Status: CLOSED FIXED
Product: SB Controller
Classification: Unclassified
Component: SB Server
: unspecified
: All All
: -- major with 3 votes (vote)
: 7.3.3
Assigned To: Ross Levine
:
Depends on: 10774
Blocks:
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2009-02-25 10:54 UTC by Briain
Modified: 2009-06-17 09:37 UTC (History)
7 users (show)

See Also:
Category: ---


Attachments
Log of controller after reboot (33.65 KB, text/plain)
2009-03-04 06:57 UTC, Gary Morgan
Details
Another reboot (111.68 KB, text/plain)
2009-03-04 09:35 UTC, Gary Morgan
Details
7.4 Crash (60.50 KB, text/plain)
2009-03-16 01:25 UTC, Gary Morgan
Details
7.2 Crash (240.71 KB, text/plain)
2009-03-16 05:52 UTC, Gary Morgan
Details
7.2 Crash (439.57 KB, text/plain)
2009-03-17 00:27 UTC, Gary Morgan
Details

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Description Briain 2009-02-25 10:54:46 UTC
Duet with Jive 3993 has serious connection and dropout problems on several wireless routers (Netgear, Sagem and Draytek). It is very difficult to get it to connect (takes several tries and then takes ages) and when it does connect, it drops out after a few seconds. When it drops out, it usually cannot reconnect.

Often when it tried to connect, it bounces all other wireless devices off the network which isn't so clever! Incidentally, all units are using WPA/PSK TKIP

Forcing it (SD card) to use 3476 and reverting to SC7.3.1 helps in that the system now works with Netgear and Sagem routers, however, connecting to the Draytek is close to impossible, and if you can connect, it drops out immediately.

Draytek do have an issue with later firmware but I'm using the reliable firmware (it's Draytek Vigor 2820vn with firmware 3.2.1) and have several other wireless devices which work flawlessly and continuously.

There seem to be lots of posts in the forum related to wireless connection issues and it seems 3993 could have major problems, however, 3476 will simply not connect to the Draytek so there is maybe an underlying issue common to both Jive versions.

Bri
Comment 1 Briain 2009-02-25 13:37:49 UTC
Not exactly sure what's happening here as 3993 doesn't work on any of the routers I have. 3476 works on the Sagem and the Netgear routers but not when trying to connect to the Draytek. Rebooting the Draytek (with 3476) then seems to permit 3476 to connect okay (thus far anyway). It looks like 3993 not only doesn't work, but that it also upsets the Draytek such that it requires a reboot. All other wireless connections worked on the Draytek before and after the reboot; very odd.
Comment 2 Briain 2009-02-26 01:27:56 UTC
I think there are two problems here; one with 7.3.2 and the other with 3993.

At the moment, I've managed to get 7.3.1 and 3476 to work on all three types of wireless router. I then completely removed 7.3.1 and installed 7.3.2 (with updates disabled) and even with 3476, the controller's suffering from extremely poor response and communication dropouts, but it does reconnect after the these dropouts (I don't know if they're wireless dropouts or simply controller~SC7 handshaking problems). 

It looks to be that 7.3.2 is somehow the guilty party causing the controller  the communication dropouts (maybe wireless; manbe handshake issues) and that 3993 is the guilty party for the wireless dropouts and inability to reconnect (maybe a WPA/PSK or DHCP issue).

Incidentally, when changing from 7.3.1 to 7.3.2 I noticed the receiver lights rapidly flashed when I switched it on, and since the controller was off, I assume it did update it's firmware from SC7.3.2, however, the controller still has 3476 on it. Maybe this is expected but I thought I'd better mention it for completeness. It's also worth mentioning that I did reboot the Draytek but it didn't change any of the above issues.

Bri
Comment 3 Briain 2009-02-26 02:12:53 UTC
I've confirmed the previous observation; there are definitely two issues here:

Keeping the controller at Jive 3476 and reverting from SC 7.3.2 to SC 7.3.1 changes the receiver firmware and the whole package works like a dream. It looks like 7.3.2 receiver firmware is causing big problems with handshaking and 3993 is the smoking gun for the wireless connection/reconnection problems.

Bri
Comment 4 James Richardson 2009-02-26 08:06:54 UTC
Brian: please link the Forum posts that you reference

If you don't use WPA/PSK TKIP, does r3993 connect to your routers?

Do you use or have STATIC IP address for the Controller/Receiver? if so, if you allow the router to assign address does the problem go away or change in any way?
Comment 5 Briain 2009-02-26 08:38:05 UTC
Hi: The two forum chains that I'm aware of are the sticky's right at the start of the Duet section http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=59329 and http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=52702 

I use DHCP and would expect (from other posts) that static IP might help, but I want to leave my friends ones as DHCP (they are also faulty) so haven't bothered trying it on my own setup. Sorry but I have now ditched 7.2.2/firmware 58/Jive 3993 to revert to 7.2.1/56/3476 as I am loaning the test NAS out tomorrow. 

I didn't try WEP as I need continuous access for all the other WPA/PSK devices and don't have time to reconfigure them all. I know you can use four x SSID access to give a mixed security environment on the Draytek, but I believe this can cause issues with the current (older) firmware I use (chosen as it's proven to work better with wireless than the current release).
Comment 6 Ross Levine 2009-02-26 11:49:10 UTC
Brian in the forum you mention a Netgear switch, and several times you've mentioned a Netgear router. What is the model number of the router? I would suggest you use the Netgear router.
Comment 7 Briain 2009-02-26 14:15:33 UTC
Hi

My point of raising this bug has nothing to do with my own system but, was raised to highlight that the current Duet firmware and Jive 3993 are quite probably seriously flawed. I only raise this bug to help sort other people's systems; mine now works fine with 7.3.1 and Jive 3476. Please see my previous comments and note the below points:

1.	Out of 5 people I know with Duets, three systems have been broken by 3993
2.	The forum is packed with people with wireless problems which have manifested only since 3993
3.	SC 7.3.1 and Jive 3476 works on all 3 wireless routers (and 2 NAS’s) I’ve tried (including the Draytek, Netgeas and a Sagem)
4.	SC 7.3.2 and Jive 3993 works on none of the routers I’ve tried
5.	In addition to the above, Jive 3993 chucked all other devices off my Draytek wireless network
6.	All my other wireless devices work on all the other routers I have tried (inc the Draytek 2820vn)

From the above, it’s not hard to deduce that the duff bit is 3993 and 7.3.2. From the forum, it's not hard to deduce that there are many people with broken Duet based systems since 3993 was introduced.

Bri
Comment 8 Briain 2009-02-26 14:22:41 UTC
PS Also tested it on my old BT Voyager 2110 and the same results; 3993/7.3.2 don't work but 3476/7.3.1 work a treat. FYI the wireless channel is completely clear from interference and the switch I've used when trying it in hybrid mode is a GS116. It doesn't seem to matter whether it's in bridged or hybrid mode; 3993/7.3.2 simply don't work.

Hope that helps. Bri
Comment 9 Ross Levine 2009-02-26 16:17:10 UTC
This needs to be taken case by case. Brian, please share the model of Netgear router that 3993 cannot connect to? 

Regarding Draytek, I was unable to connect my Controller to my Draytek Vigor 2600G until I updated to latest firmware. I think I was using 2.5.7; I updated to 2.5.9 and now the Controller connects and stays connected without issue. You admit Draytek has issues with their firmware, have you taken this up with their support?
Comment 10 Gary Morgan 2009-02-26 23:46:03 UTC
Case by Case? I think there is a fundamental issue with the implementation of wireless within Jive. Our setups do play a part by what we have is just not robust. I was rebuilding 3 laptops over WLAN streaming 100's Mbs of data all of which did not miss a beat yet the SBC rebooted several times.

I suggest that you do not get to bogged down by issues with router firmware etc. I too have a Draytek 2820Vn and put Brian on to the most stable FW version. I'm a reseller for Draytek and know my way around them well. As Brian, myself and others have indicated all our other WLAN hardware runs fine. In my case that includes a Boom, SB3, & SBR.

This is my set up:-

- Draytek Vigor 2820Vn running V3.2.1 FW on a poor ADSL connection
- WLAN via Vigor, Hidden SSID, WPA/WPA2
- SC running on PC, XP Pro SP3 fully patched, fixed IP
- SC Version: 7.3.3 - 25114
- SBC on fixed IP
- SB3 in lounge, WLAN @ 73%, rock solid for years!
- SBR in loft for bathroom, WLAN @ 89%, No problems once hard coded with NetUDAP
- Boom in bedroom, WLAN @ 99%, No wireless issues that I'm aware of.

With SBC FW V7.2 r3191 - Seems to have worked fine for 12 hours now and quite responsive.

3993 - Works but is subject to lock-ups and multiple reboots wether in use or not.

V7.4 r4154 - Very unstable, has difficulty connecting to WLAN and problems listing players. Wirless indicator goes Blue and Red, only ever seen White with all other FW's

The SBC has a SD card in if you want logs
Comment 11 Gary Morgan 2009-02-27 00:09:21 UTC
All these issues also raise an issue in the way updates are handled and if you want I'm happy to raise another bug?

When SBC updates are available from SC there is no way to back out of the update menu. Needs to work like this maybe...

New FW update available to you want ton install it (yes/no)?
Yes - proceed to update
No - do not update and do not ask again until a new release is available.

List 1 or 2 versions of FW in menu to manualy down/up grade if required, much like menu with SD card in.

PS if you have any beta FW;s to try I'm and I guess Brian, would be happy to test.
Comment 12 Gary Morgan 2009-02-27 02:13:22 UTC
FYI SBC FW V7.2 r3191 has just rebooted the controller. Wasn't in use just sitting in the charging cradle. 

Looking at the wireless stats, the controller is showing as connected, WPA2-PSK
54Mb/s with a SNR of 25. Yet my laptop in the same location is showing SNR of -57
Comment 13 Briain 2009-02-27 02:48:55 UTC
Hi

Sorry, the Netgear was borrowed for the test and my friend has just left to go abroad on holiday; I didn't even look at the router so can't tell you which it was until he returns. The Sagem was F@ST 2504 (the one Sky supply) if that
helps. I'll email my other friends who are having problems and ask which routers they have (none are Draytek).

I've just rebuild SC7.3.1 on a NAS (Jive 3476 and my Draytek router) and it's totally unusable. After taking 5 minutes to connect, it plays a track and responds to commands from the controller. It then becomes unresponsive then eventually responded to commands (20~30 seconds) later. The signal level (on the controller) was showing in white whilst this was all going on, but it then went blue for 30 seconds, and is now white again. It plays a few seconds then stops, then starts, then stops again. It also looses the album picture from the display; it eventually reappears then goes again. It has just stopped playing altogether but the picture has appeared.

I too have been checking my wireless network and it's performing absolutely excellently; it is the Duet which is the guilty party here, not my router!

I now know that the 'check for software updates' doesn't do what it says on the info note (pop up a note saying newer stuff is available) but actually forces any firmware update onto the user.

Just had an email from a colleague:
In a very vague handwavy manner, i.e. a few observations, the Receiver is now reporting 90-95% signal strength, whereas previously it usually seemed to be 60-80%. 

Curiously, mine's reporting the same sort of change; was 85% now 95%.
Comment 14 Briain 2009-02-27 03:03:17 UTC
Turned off controller and after switching on, it shows the expected list in the home menu (but the signal leven shows blue). When selecting artists, it tries to connect to the server for ages then reporte that there is a problem connecting. Tried again but not finding it. Tried looking for other music sources but it reports: couldn't connect your Squeezebox to your wireless network, make sure it's within range etc. 

Meanwhile, I have a PDA and a laptop which connects immediately (whilst the Duet is trying) so no, this isn't a router issue, it's a Duet one.

Incidentally, tried all this with Ethernet cable fed to Duet Rx but no change.
Comment 15 Briain 2009-02-27 04:02:43 UTC
Hi

Rebooted NAS and Duet connected immediately this time. Selected an album and it claimed to be playing (but no picture on controller). Receiver light brightens (indicating that it's active and has received the playlist instruction) but no sound. 

After 1 minute there was a 3 second burst of the track. Picture then appeared on controller. Timer on controller counts from 0:00 to 0:30 then resets to 0:00 (this cycle loops but still no sound). Receiver light still bright.

After another minute, I selected the next track button and after a further minute, I got 2 second burst of music and now it's on the 0:00~0:30 cycle for track 2 (again, still no sound).

Signal indicator remains white throughout (both on controller and Rx). 

SSH into NAS and ps aux shows all processes as taking no resources apart from the below 4:

USER       PID %CPU %MEM   VSZ  RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
root       902  2.2  6.9 23088 15808 ?       Ss   11:42   0:18 /usr/sbin/apache-
root       960  8.7  5.8 15152 13312 ?       S<   11:42   1:14 /usr/share/twonky
root       953 32.5 25.3 65056 57344 ?       S<   11:42   4:35 /usr/bin/perl -w
root      1062  1.3  1.8 11264 4112 ?        Ss   11:54   0:01 sshd: root@pts/0

Looks like nothing to do with NAS resources then.

Bri
Comment 16 Ross Levine 2009-02-27 12:18:24 UTC
I'll try to address as much as I can. Controller updates the way it is designed to update. If you would like to use different firmware for testing, you're welcome to use the instructions here:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Custom.jive.version

I would expect Controller and your laptop to perform differently on your wireless network, they are completely different. Differing SNR is expected. 

The two of you are experiencing similar wireless problems specific to Controller and your routers, which happen to both be Draytek brand routers. I am _NOT_ saying that Draytek is a bad router. I'm simply trying to narrow down what is causing this to get the details needed so we can proceed to get this working again. 

With that said, lets move forward. I'm unable to reproduce this issue with r3993 and my Draytek 2600G, firmware 2.5.9. Can you recommend a firmware for this router that should help me reproduce? Can you answer why you're not using the latest Draytek firmware, and elaborate on the issue with later firmware you mention in comment #1? 

Could you please try disabling power management on your Controller, and see if that helps with the disconnecting issues you're experiencing. Settings - Advanced - Factory Test - Power management, uncheck Wireless Power Save. 

I need your help understanding Draytek, and aforementioned firmware issues, and we need to narrow down this issue as much as possible, or you help me reproduce it, then we'll start logging and figure out what the problem is.
Comment 17 Gary Morgan 2009-02-27 12:57:33 UTC
Ross,

I know Brian raised this as a Draytek specific issue but my feeling is that it is not. The Draytek may well be influencing the problem but reading the various posts suggests issues with other routers too.

I can understand the differing SNR due to different antenna arrangements but I would have expected it to closer to what the laptop is seeing.

You also mention that laptop wireless is different from the controller how? I also have an SB3 that has been rock solid for years. The Boom and SBR are also stable.

I'm not sure how good the fault replication would be with a 2600 as that is an old device now and I suspect the chipset to be different. 

The reason for not using the latest firmware is for a number of reasons and some are wireless related, eg problems issuing DHCP addresses etc. My experience with this is also born out by others on the Draytek forums...

http://www.forum.draytek.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=11915&highlight=2820+wireless
http://www.forum.draytek.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=12290&highlight=2820

Funny enough checking the firmware http://www.draytek.co.uk/support/downloads.html

I notice they have just posted 3.3.1 (after 3.3.2!) so that might be worth a try.

A for a little credit ;-) You guys are a lot more responsive than they are.

I have now disabled the wireless power save.
Comment 18 Ross Levine 2009-02-27 13:08:24 UTC
Gary, case by case. As I see other 3993 issues with different routers, I will investigate them. 

The wireless antenna in Controller is 1", the 2 wireless antennas in your laptop are probably over a foot long. Completely different: I'm not interested in comparing the wireless performance of any laptop with a wifi hand held Controller. 

I'll do some investigating on the Draytek forums. I will admit I'm concerned when you mention there are known wireless / DHCP issues with the router and firmware you're using. They will need to have these resolved before our developers can take a serious look at the issue our product is having with their router. 

I appreciate you taking the time to get involved, as mentioned I need your help. I hope you'll have time to test Draytek's newest firmware, and toggling power saving mode on our Controller.
Comment 19 Ross Levine 2009-02-27 13:19:59 UTC
I can't seem to register with Draytek forums. Do they block outside of UK? I got the activation email and activated, yet my login still doesn't work. 

I'll give it a shot on Monday.
Comment 20 Briain 2009-02-27 13:47:52 UTC
Hi

There are more antenna designs than versions of Squeezecenter but essentially a quarter wave antenna @ 2.2GC/s is only 3.4cm long (dipole would be twice that). Any longer antenna would have to be a collinear and I'm not sure they use these in laptops; maybe I’ll get corrected on that though! MIMO of Draytek is really well designed and gives a rock-solid signal throughout the house. My PDA (also a tiny antenna) works in garden (20m and via lots of Edwardian thick stone walls) whereas Duet is 2M from router aerials, so it's certainly not a field strength issue. 

I’ve just tried SC7.2 with firmware and Jive 3191 and it’s totally robust. I’ve also just had a text from another friend (with a Duet and a ReadyNAS) who is at the point of taking a 4lb hammer to his Duet. I should add that he’s a senior radio designer who also works on things that operate at this sort of frequency.

Sorry but the conclusion is that this not a Draytek issue, but Draytek is perhaps more fussy about incorrect protocols, security and dropouts and is thus showing up the fault more than a domestic router (that’s just a pure guess though). 

I’ve texted my latest ‘broken Duet’ contact (SC7.3.1) and asked for his router info and will update this when he responds. It is definitely not a Draytek though! 

Bri
Comment 21 Briain 2009-02-27 14:22:20 UTC
Hi

to answer the earlier question about the Netgear router; it was the same as the one my other friend uses (who's Duet/SC7.3.1 is now experiencing exactly the same problems; see below post). In both cases, these were Netgear DG834.

Bri
Comment 22 Gary Morgan 2009-02-27 14:30:16 UTC
Most laptops I have seen a based on 1/4 wav ant's on the edges of PCBs or
folded tin plates. 

Anyway for what it's worth I'm on 3.3.1 RC9 Draytek FW now. Not that DHCP is a
problem anyway given that I'm using fixed IP for my SB products. 

Wireless powersave off. I'll see how it goes.

I'd be suprised if Draytek UK block non UK access. But I'm not sure what you
will gain as I'm sure it is not the Draytek. If you read through the 3993 post
there are various issues involving all sorts of wireless kit. And loads of us
have bashed our heads against the wall altering our configs to try and get to
the bottom of it, none of which is making any progress other than Brian rolling
back SC and Jive. 

Gary
Comment 23 Ross Levine 2009-02-27 15:26:52 UTC
I managed access to Draytek's forum by clicking the activate link an extra time. Interesting how many wireless stability complaints there are and still you can conclude it's definitely not the fault of the Draytek.
Comment 24 Gary Morgan 2009-02-27 16:08:17 UTC
No! The opposite both Brian and I agree (I think) that the Draytek may well contribute but lets not get confused. There are plenty of other senarios where the controller is crashing and locking up. Brian has just posted that a RedayNas & Netgear are failing too.

Many of us have spent time tweaking our wireless setups, now we need to spend time on the SBC, There is clearly an issue here too!!

Brian and I have commercial installs on the back of this and cannot afford for them to stew. This is a great bit of kit when it works at that is probably the main reason people have stuck with it. Time to get it sorted and continue with the development.
Comment 25 Gary Morgan 2009-02-28 00:48:55 UTC
I have some reluctance to post this as it shifts focus even more on to the Draytek when I'm certain that this is just part of the puzzle.

Draytek 3.3.1 RC9 Firmware now installed. Immediatley after router reboot my SB3 did not see the server yet this has been the most stable bit of kit once the wireless security issues were sorted in the early days. 

I went back to the network setup menu and went through each stage of the menu accepting any settings (Passwords, network addresses) that were in there from before and it logged on? The Boom, SBC & SBR all connected without assistance.

Now just need to see how stable it all is.

Ross, in one of your previous posts you said that comparing laptop networking is nothing like comparing it to the SBC, how so? Stability is definatly on comparision. And although that is a bit of a pop at you it does seem indicative of less powerfull devices in general. Over the years I've seen alsorts of issues with PocketPCs, Universal remotes etc. mainly because I think there is less development on the wireless firmware given the limited sales.
Comment 26 Briain 2009-03-01 04:35:36 UTC
Hi 

I recall noting in the forum that someone had set up continuous pinging to a Jive controller and noted that the return times were 'all over the place'. I’ve just tried this and note the below.

My thoughts are exactly as Gary states below; there is a wireless issue which is impacting on many, possibly even the majority of Duets and I can only assume that the Draytek is less forgiving about whatever is causing these issues. It is a semi-professional router and is thus maybe less forgiving?

I am using the Draytek firmware which has no issues, and it works fine with all appliances including an HP iPAQ214 on which I have an application running which requires continuous connection (and notifies me if it drops); see the iPAQ stats for the below ping tests.

I'm trying 7.2.1 at the moment but am still loosing communication between the NAS and Duet RX as well as between SC and the controller; it was okay fr a bit but is now totally unusable. There's no indication of any wireless dropouts to the controller (but it does loose communication with the server as it often takes a minute or so to show the album list).

7.2.1 has just lost connection and I cannot connect to the server nor see the receiver.

The below statistics are taken by running ping from the ReadyNAS on which SC7 is installed. I have seen 10% lost packets (the Controller isn't very good unless it's pretty close to the router) but the blow tests show no lost packets even thogu the music kept stopping, the controller kept loosing communication with everything and the controller signal bar even went blue for a while. The pauses in the music lasted a minute or so and yet buth items were still responding to pings all the time. 

Jive Controller ping statistics (2m from wireless router):
224 packets transmitted, 224 received, 0% packet loss, time 223028ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 1.803/8.355/312.705/23.643 ms

Duet Receiver ping statistics:
79 packets transmitted, 79 received, 0% packet loss, time 78000ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.581/1.047/6.372/1.016 ms

iPAQ 214 PDA ping statistics:
218 packets transmitted, 218 received, 0% packet loss, time 216992ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 1.743/6.165/127.535/16.033 ms

Incidentally, the receiver performance drops off pretty quickly as can be seen below. It doesn't make it any more or less prone to loosing connection though.

Jive Controller ping statistics (6m from wireless router but through a brick wall):
95 packets transmitted, 87 received, 8% packet loss, time 94002ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 2.004/33.828/219.599/43.315 ms
Comment 27 Gary Morgan 2009-03-01 10:17:27 UTC
It's locked up! Backlight on but no display. At this rate I'll be logging a call for worn out battery connections and a loose back. It is already creaking in the hand.

That was with power save on as well. So I'll roll back the Draytek FW to 3.2.1.

SC 7.3.3 - 25114 
SBC 7.2 r3191 

I had been running the pings, 1 to keep the controller active and 2 because I had observed reply times that were all over the place. It still locked up or rebooted. Intermittanly when it reboots it will lockup again on the Logitech logo.
Comment 28 Ross Levine 2009-03-02 13:26:25 UTC
Does it lock up and reboot with power save disabled?
Comment 29 Gary Morgan 2009-03-02 13:36:22 UTC
(In reply to comment #28)
> Does it lock up and reboot with power save disabled?
Yes
Comment 30 Gary Morgan 2009-03-02 13:45:36 UTC
Ross, Is there a set configuration you want us to try? SC Jive, Settings, Logging?
Comment 31 Ross Levine 2009-03-03 16:52:09 UTC
(In reply to comment #30)
> Ross, Is there a set configuration you want us to try? SC Jive, Settings,
> Logging?

Try disabling power management on your Controller, create a log directory on a SD card and put it in Controller, and reproduce the disconnect / reboot. Then please attach the log.
Comment 32 Gary Morgan 2009-03-04 06:57:41 UTC
Created attachment 4881 [details]
Log of controller after reboot

Just rebooted. SBC just sitting in the charger not being used and I heard the startup music play.

Power management settings:-
Sleep Timeout  30
Suspend Timeout 3600
Suspend Enabled, not checked
Suspend Wake, not checked
Wireless Power Save, not checked

Jive 7.2 r3191
SC 7.3.3 - 25259
Comment 33 Briain 2009-03-04 07:58:48 UTC
Hi

I've now tried everything to get the Duet to play. I ensured that the DoS defense Setup was disabled in the Draytek, I then set it up with the Duet RX connected to an Ethernet port (so no wireless) and put a track on whilst standing next to the router (so with a good signal).

1. The controller navigates through the menu's really quickly and shows the art etc.
3. You can either leave the original track playing, or forward it (as above) but after about 30 seconds, it stops (but the Rx light remains bright).
4. The album art disappears from the controller just about the same time that the track stops.
5. After about 30 seconds, the art appears and the track starts.
6. After about 10 seconds, the art vanishes and the track stops again.

The above cycle repeats.

Looking at the 'now playing' list shows the album, but with only art assigned to the first two tracks. Selecting to delete the lot does nothing, then after about 30 seconds (often much longer) the music stops; this is a very repeatable scenario.

I am completely at a loss here and wonder if anyone has any ideas what might be wrong? To be honest, I'm not going to change the Draytek as I need the facilities and it works fabulously with all other network elements (particularly the wireless performance, which with the 3.2.1 firmware is absolutely excellent).

The only option left to me is to move to Sonos for all future installations (I've already fitted two Sonos systems whilst this is being debated). I really, really, really don't want to do that but this 'unknown' wireless issue has dented my confidence in the viability of this product. Other Duet (non Draytek) systems are mostly working but often just stop (and show the revolving dots in the menu). They eventually reconnect and start working but it seems that they're nothing like as good as they were.

Anyone for anything? I really want to stay loyal to SC if I can but it's looking unlikely thus far. If I can't even get my own one to work I can hardly recommend it to others!

Bri
Comment 34 Gary Morgan 2009-03-04 09:35:37 UTC
Created attachment 4882 [details]
Another reboot

And another reboot!
Comment 35 Gary Morgan 2009-03-04 09:44:51 UTC
Brian, I share your frustrations I to will be keeping the Draytek as it is my business router used for VoIP, VPNing to other sites and clinets etc. etc.

One thought I guess could be to use the SBR in bridge mode that way you are removing the Draytek wireless from the picture. Then there is no way the finger can point anywhere other than at Logitech. Only problem is the wireless range. It won't work in my setup.

Given the amount of times I have suggested some public forum based comments from logitech I'm wondering what priority this has? There has been little direction on this. We just want to feel loved.
Comment 36 Briain 2009-03-04 12:38:14 UTC
Hi

This is very interesting. It's a long entry but will hopefully help generate a few thoughts and ideas as to what's going on.

With the Duet Rx Ethernet (wired) for all the below tests, I played an album and had the same issues as before; few seconds music, dropout, few seconds music, dropout, art vanishing from controller and re-appearing etc, etc.

I cleared the playlist, switched off the controller and tried SC web interface and it worked perfectly (as you'd expect). I then cleared the playlist, closed the web GUI, booted up the controller, selected an album and it worked flawlessly; how totally bizarre is that? I didn't check it for more than a minute or so but that's the longest it's played yet, and it permitted me to skip through tracks, which it has never done before (it just advanced one track then played a few seconds, then dropped out etc). 

I then switched music source to my other NAS, (both have SC 7.2.1 and are on the same subnet) and selected an album. It had the usual issues; dropouts, music, dropouts, art vanishing from controller etc. I then switched off the controller and it continued playing the same erratic way (music, silence, music, silence etc). That’s really interesting as there’s now no wireless or controller involved anywhere and it’s still dropping out!

With the controller still switched off and the dropouts still happening, I then started the SC web interface for the new NAS source. Once it had fully loaded (slow on a NAS) and was displaying what was being played, the music stopped dropping out and played without any problems.

Without clearing the playlist this time, I then closed the web interface (music still going well) and switched on the controller. As soon as the controller had booted up, it started causing dropouts in the music. It was nowhere near as bad as it was but still causes a couple of dropouts per track and kept loosing the artwork. After playing two troubled tracks, it then played 5 tracks (controller switched on) without any problem at all (and the art was showing). I then tried advancing one track and it started the music and dropout cycle (the artwork vanished as well). It then played 30 seconds, drops out, plays 10 seconds, drops out, and then played the rest of the track. After that, it worked well and permitted track advances without introducing dropouts.

It seems that by using SC’s web GUI just once, it somehow ties the system together and permits use of the Jive controller. It’s still a bit ‘twitchy’ but that’s brought it back to life on two different NAS’s. If we can identify why this has made a difference, it might well point to a solution to all the other more minor issues people are experiencing and make the product a lot more robust for all of us.

This is very interesting and to me indicates that the wireless issues could maybe be a curved ball. This now feels more like a handshake or control sequence problem between Jive and SC. Maybe it’s somehow being exacerbated by the Draytek but it’s interesting to note in the forum that one or two people have changed their (non-Draytek) routers despite seeing no issues with other wireless devices, and their Duet’s now work.

Bri
Comment 37 Briain 2009-03-04 12:52:54 UTC
Footnote to the below entry:
Incidentally, after typing the below observations, I picked up the controller and it showed the signal bargraph in blue. It then couldn't reconnect to the NAS; I tried several times and no joy. Rebooted Jive and it connected immediately, so it looks like I'm also seeing the same issues as others have posted about in the forum. It's still playing and working really well now that it's reconnected (see below entry for full details).
Comment 38 Gary Morgan 2009-03-16 01:25:03 UTC
Created attachment 4933 [details]
7.4 Crash

Upgraded to 7.4 r4154 and the Duet controller still crashed, log attached. 

Any suggestions on what to do next? I think I'm going to revert to a 7.2 build.
Comment 39 Gary Morgan 2009-03-16 05:52:31 UTC
Created attachment 4935 [details]
7.2 Crash

Now on 

SqueezeCenter Version: 7.2.1 - 23630
SBC Jive 7.3 r3993

and suffered 2 random reboots since this morning. Controller sitting in charger unused.

Suggestions please
Comment 40 Gary Morgan 2009-03-17 00:27:38 UTC
Created attachment 4938 [details]
7.2 Crash

Crashed overnight but this time the controller did not reboot just locked up with the LED backlight on and nothing on the screen.
Comment 41 Briain 2009-03-19 12:14:52 UTC
I've had a response from someone on the Draytek forum who uses a Duet with a 2820Vn router like the ones Gary and I use. Below is the post and my response:

--------------------

I'm still running 3.2.1 on my 2820Vn and I use a Duet as well.

The only time it drops out is very occasionally in the evening and I think that is because of channel congestion with my neighbours (apartment dweller).

During the day it'll be absolutely rock solid.

I use WPA2 on mine though, which is a slight difference from your setup.

I'd still like to get beyond 3.2.1 at some point in the future but 3.3.0 was unusable for me.

---------------------

Hi

Thanks very much for that; it is very useful to know. Both myself and another Duet user (both using 3.2.1) are having horrific problems and have raised a bug on the SlimDevices site. To be honest, I think that the Duet has other issues and these are being highlighted by the Draytek. I'd really like to get to the bottom of all this as it would be good to eliminate the Draytek from my list of suspects; the Logitech Duet works fine with two other routers I've tried which makes me wonder which product is ‘breaking the rules’. I also use the Draytek with an iPAQ PDA which has UPnP (Linn KinskyPDA) software on it. This is used to drive other systems and has no problems at all (you'd notice any dropouts as the volume control buttons would stop working). I also use a Samsung Q1 which has other Linn software and again, you'd see any dropouts (I've simulated them and it is really obvious) so I think the smoking gun points to the Duet Controller.

Bri
Comment 42 Ross Levine 2009-03-31 15:45:43 UTC
*** Bug 11420 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 43 James Richardson 2009-03-31 15:49:06 UTC
*** Bug 8186 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 44 Ross Levine 2009-04-06 17:21:41 UTC
Gary have you had a chance to try what Brian suggested in the forum, about firmware B123108a? 

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=413106&postcount=233
Comment 45 Gary Morgan 2009-04-07 01:13:03 UTC
No, just to remove the Draytek from the picture I have provided the SBC with its own WLAN based on an old DLink DWL-900AP+. And the controller is still locking up. It will do this even when the WLAN is down so I'm begining to think that I have got a stuffed controller.
Comment 46 Briain 2009-04-07 06:25:46 UTC
Can the Duet RX act as a bridge between the Duet Controller and the router? I'd never considered this might be happening but my previous tests involved the Duet RX being closer (to the Controller) than the WAP. For the current (successful) tests, the WAP is much closer than the Duet RX. This is something I just hadn’t considered before as I assumed the Controller only talked directly to the router/WAP.

It would help my testing if I know this is a possible mode and if so, I'll move everything to ensure I force it to work both ways and see if I can get it to play up again.

Bri
Comment 47 Ross Levine 2009-04-07 11:10:10 UTC
(In reply to comment #46)
> Can the Duet RX act as a bridge between the Duet Controller and the router? I'd
> never considered this might be happening but my previous tests involved the
> Duet RX being closer (to the Controller) than the WAP. For the current
> (successful) tests, the WAP is much closer than the Duet RX. This is something
> I just hadn’t considered before as I assumed the Controller only talked
> directly to the router/WAP.
> 
> It would help my testing if I know this is a possible mode and if so, I'll move
> everything to ensure I force it to work both ways and see if I can get it to
> play up again.
> 
> Bri

Bridged connection requires the Squeezebox receiver to be connected via Ethernet cable to your network. If that is possible for you, it would certainly be a great work around. To setup in bridged mode connect your Receiver to your network via Ethernet cable, factory reset both, and select connect via Receiver rather than wireless network during setup.
Comment 48 Ross Levine 2009-04-08 13:51:07 UTC
Fixed in 7.3.3 - r5225. If you've experienced this bug please update to latest nightly 7.3.3 build. Install the new version of SqueezeCenter, update your Duet firmware, factory reset both Controller and Receiver and setup one more time. Please post here in the bug with your findings. 

7.3.3 nightly download here:

http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/?ver=7.3
Comment 49 Gary Morgan 2009-04-20 12:46:16 UTC
My problems were not fixed by firmware or WLAN changes. In the end I placed a fault call with Logitech UK and they send me a replacement controller that worked straight out of the box.
Comment 50 James Richardson 2009-06-17 09:37:02 UTC
This bug has been fixed in the 7.3.3 release version of SqueezeCenter!

If you haven't already. please download the new version from http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/support/download-squeezecenter.html 

If you are still experiencing this problem, feel free to reopen the bug with your new comments and we'll have another look.