Bugzilla – Bug 10393
Annoying 'Can't connect message...' displayed when the server is lost
Last modified: 2010-05-13 10:52:09 UTC
Every time my server shuts down i get (in bright font) an error message along the lines of... ". I believe this was added recently (7.2?) on request of the folk at Logitech customer service to aid them and new customers troubleshoot. This fair enough, but it could have been down in a smarter way. The problem is that the current implementation does not discriminate between intentional and unintentional server loss (i expect it probably can't). That's fine if someone's server has crashed or gone AWOL on the network, but it's a pain for those of us who use WOL and set their PC to sleep or shut down our manually many times per day. So what i think should happen is that no message is displayed when a connection to SC is lost - if the user does not do anything. But if the user presses any key on the remote, then the message appears. Think about it, if the lost connection was not meant to happen the user will press a key to try and work it. In other words, with intentional server shut downs the user will not want to interact with it and know whats happened anyway). With an unintentional server loss, the user will press about (which will then let them know whats happening). If that can't happen, would it be possible to have an option in the SB3's FW to disable these kind of error messages altogether? I know to many people this is trivial, but it's really funny how these little things can start to get to you after a while. Especially as it sits under my TV and can be distracting (not to mention annoying when guests keep saying - "hey ya Squeezebox has failed again!"). It just plain odd to get an error message when its worked as expected.
Sorry, the above message was meant to read as; Every time my server shuts down i get (in bright font) an error message along the lines of "Can't connect to Squeezecenter. Go left..." (In reply to comment #0) > Every time my server shuts down i get (in bright font) an error message along > the lines of... ". I believe this was added recently (7.2?) on request of the > folk at Logitech customer service to aid them and new customers troubleshoot. > This fair enough, but it could have been down in a smarter way. The problem is > that the current implementation does not discriminate between intentional and > unintentional server loss (i expect it probably can't). That's fine if > someone's server has crashed or gone AWOL on the network, but it's a pain for > those of us who use WOL and set their PC to sleep or shut down our manually > many times per day. > > So what i think should happen is that no message is displayed when a connection > to SC is lost - if the user does not do anything. But if the user presses any > key on the remote, then the message appears. Think about it, if the lost > connection was not meant to happen the user will press a key to try and work > it. In other words, with intentional server shut downs the user will not want > to interact with it and know whats happened anyway). With an unintentional > server loss, the user will press about (which will then let them know whats > happening). > > If that can't happen, would it be possible to have an option in the SB3's FW to > disable these kind of error messages altogether? > > I know to many people this is trivial, but it's really funny how these little > things can start to get to you after a while. Especially as it sits under my TV > and can be distracting (not to mention annoying when guests keep saying - "hey > ya Squeezebox has failed again!"). It just plain odd to get an error message > when its worked as expected. >
Changing target to next release
Felix: your thoughts on this one?
Are you saying the message stays on forever? The display should go dark after about 30 seconds.
Felix, It does go blank after 30 seconds, but if you read forum messages you will find this new behavior is wildly unpopular, especially among people who use squeezebox devices in their bedrooms. The following is a true story of how this worked out for me last night: I listened to music in my living room to relax before going to bed, so the server was running as I went upstairs to bed. In the middle of the night, the nearly dark bedroom is flooded with green light and my wife is woken first who then wakes me to say, "your fancy music box is trying to tell you something, and it woke me up again!" "Oh," I say, "that's because I'm using the latest firmware. I hope you appreciate the continuous improvements the folks at Logitech are making!" The rest of the conversation is unprintable. See bug 10527, for more info.
*** Bug 10527 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Felix: peterw in this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=378526&postcount=4 suggests that a solution to this could be to simply have the SB not change the brightness level when displaying the "Can't connect" message. So, if a power scheme drops the player's brightness to 0 before sending the server into suspend, the message would be displayed but without the bathing the bedroom in ghostly green light.
If the brightness was set to 0 just before suspending the server, won't it still be 0 when the server wakes up? Would you safely be able to determine when to change the brightness back to its previous value? It sounds like a nasty work-around. Showing the message in the last used brightness value seems sensible (and perhaps for a shorter duration too, seeing that the message comes back when you press a key).
I wonder if another behavior that I've noticed recently with my SB2 is related... I'll occasionally see this message while the SB2 is still connected to the server. It just randomly pops up, then goes away after a second or two. The SB2 in question is connected wirelessly, but is less than 5 ft from the wireless access point and always has 100% signal strength. If the message is being triggered while the server is off, then there must be a bug somewhere causing it to appear with no cause. Fix that and you'll solve most of the annoyance.
(In reply to comment #8) > If the brightness was set to 0 just before suspending the server, won't it > still be 0 when the server wakes up? Would you safely be able to determine > when to change the brightness back to its previous value? It sounds like a > nasty work-around. > My experiments show that this is not the case. E.G: $curclient->execute(['show', 'line1:Dark%20Display', 'line2:Should%20not%20see%20me', 'duration:30', 'centered:1', 'brightness:0']); ..does indeed blank the display. If the server is suspended and then resumed, the player gets it's default brightness level with no special intervention necessary. But I think a agree with you that this would be kind of a kludge. Personally, I'd prefer to see the old firmware behavior returned: On disconnect: blank display. On keypress: show "Can't Connect" message.
(In reply to comment #10) > Personally, > I'd prefer to see the old firmware behavior returned: On disconnect: blank > display. On keypress: show "Can't Connect" message. Agreed. Even a techno-idiot such as myself was able to figure that out pretty quickly. The new behavior causes more problems than it solves.
I would really like this to go back to the old behaviour. When my server goes into standby I would like my SB3 display to remain blank. At teh moment it flashes on every few minutes - very irritating as it is right next to my TV.
Any news on this bug yet? It's target is 7.4; is that likely to happen? I find this behaviour really annoying for my SB3 in the bedroom. 30 secs of max brightness is really bad. I'm afraid to set my PC into hibernate/sleep mode in case I wake my wife up! Even if it were to display the message in brightness level 1 it would be a vast improvement, but the old behaviour was so much better. Instead of a message, you could display a little "disconnected" symbol.
(In reply to comment #13) > Any news on this bug yet? It's target is 7.4; is that likely to happen? > > I find this behaviour really annoying for my SB3 in the bedroom. 30 secs of > max brightness is really bad. I'm afraid to set my PC into hibernate/sleep > mode in case I wake my wife up! > > Even if it were to display the message in brightness level 1 it would be a vast > improvement, but the old behaviour was so much better. > > Instead of a message, you could display a little "disconnected" symbol. Can't agree more. At least reduce the brightness and reduced the time its displayed. But I still maintain it's not needed to be shown unless a user presses a button. The current design is very crude - not least because it an error message for something thats not an error. If no one wants to put any real time or thought into in logic of this because they are busy with other things, cool, but please please please at least just let us toggle it off. An firmware option for "suppress SC connection error messages (black screen)" would be best for me. My SB3 is right next to my TV and its very distracting, i see the message 5 - 10 times a day. It's _unbelievably_ annoying.
Just to reiterate, the comments above are right on. I tried swapping out a SB3 for a SBR in my bedroom and found that it is arguably worse, since that box has a permanent, ultra-bright blue led light on during the state when it's on the network but SC is sleeping. The only way to get the SBR light to go off is to have the SC permanently running! This almost looks like a willful vendetta against users who have an eco-friendly mindset. Well, perhaps not, but it's a perverse way to treat customers, IMO.
Targeting based on engineering discussion
The REAL problem here is that this still happens when the device is in standby. If I have been using my SB3 with Squeezecenter on my PC, and then press the power button on the remote to put the Squeezebox into standby, it shows the clock screensaver. Good. If I then go and switch off my PC, it starts popping up with ~"cannot connect to squeezecenter" - why? I am not attempting to use it! The only way I can get my lovely screensaver back again is to connect to Squeezenetwork and then power off again. This is not what I want. I only want to be prompted with the message "cannot connect to squeezecenter" if I manually power on my Squeezebox (common sense!) Can't be difficult to get this into the next release surely? Even new users will not expect this behaviour if they have switched their Squezebox off. -- Many thanks
It also displays this message if you're using Squeezebox as a wireless bridge, and whatever you have connected via the Ethernet port disconnects. This means that whenever I turn my Blu-Ray player off my Squeezebox complains at me.
(In reply to comment #17) > If I then go and switch off my PC, it starts popping up with ~"cannot connect > to squeezecenter" - why? I am not attempting to use it! Well, yes, you are. The clock screensaver has to get the time from somewhere. One option would be to switch automatically to SN when connection to SC is lost, but this probably opens up a whole new can of worms (what if connection was lost to SC temporarily by accident (network hick-up, whatever)). You cannot not have the messgae to indicate you have lost connection (for troubleshooting purposes), so a way has to be found to make it more inobstrusive.
(In reply to comment #19) > You cannot not have the messgae to indicate you have lost connection (for > troubleshooting purposes), so a way has to be found to make it more > inobstrusive. Why not? It never used to be this way. If my mobile losses it 3G connection, a bright large message does not pop up to tell me its lost - that would be dumb. Ok, thats probably a poor example, but the issues here is that this is an error message which gets displayed when 95% of the time (for me anyway) is not an error. On top of the fact that it's just makes no sense, its very VERY annoying because a) my SB3 is under my TV and when the lights are down while watch a movie it's very off-putting. And B) The player next to my bed and the bright message has actually woken my up once, although usually it just lights the room up like a Christmas tree. I do agree that an error message is important at certain times. And i also realise that the Classic/Boom does not know why the connection has gone. The solution is easy - just dont show a message when the connection is lost UNLESS the user tries to perform ANY action/keypress on their remote. The reason that would work and still have new users trouble shoot is simple - a user wont drop their remote on the floor and ring CS instantly when the screen blanked. The would press a button on the remote first, otherwise they would not be using it. Yet the server can sleep quietly because no one is using the player.
>The solution is easy - just dont show a message when the connection is lost >UNLESS the user tries to perform ANY action/keypress on their remote. Fully agree with that. Also, the message should be shown in the current brightness level, not max brightness.
(In reply to comment #19) > (In reply to comment #17) > > If I then go and switch off my PC, it starts popping up with ~"cannot connect > > to squeezecenter" - why? I am not attempting to use it! > > Well, yes, you are. The clock screensaver has to get the time from somewhere. > That sort of implies that if I change my "Screensaver when off" setting to "None", then the problem will go away. It doesn't.
(In reply to comment #19) >> If I then go and switch off my PC, it starts popping up with ~"cannot connect >> to squeezecenter" - why? I am not attempting to use it! > Well, yes, you are. The clock screensaver has to get the time from somewhere. No, you're not. The clock screensaver is on the server. No code gets executed on the player...the player is just a dumb display. Except for the Boom, of course, which has it's own RTC.
(In reply to comment #21) > Also, the message should be shown in the current brightness level, not max > brightness. FYI: Setup display brightness (SB2/3 and Transporter) can be set independently from brightness when connected to SC / SN. (Boom has an ambient light sensor and works differently.) To do that drop back into setup (holding back button) or stop your SC / disconnect from SN. Now setup brightness can be set via brightness button on the remote. This brightness is then also used to show the "Cannot connect..." message. Two remarks: - Setup brightness cannot be set to be completely dark. - Setup brightness is not persistent (i.e. if you power cycle, it's back to max). I know that's still not perfect, but maybe it helps a little. Felix
Felix: can this be set programatically from the server? I.E. is there a method like $client->brightness(0); that will set the setup brightness?
(In reply to comment #19) > (In reply to comment #17) > > If I then go and switch off my PC, it starts popping up with ~"cannot connect > > to squeezecenter" - why? I am not attempting to use it! > Well, yes, you are. The clock screensaver has to get the time from somewhere. > One option would be to switch automatically to SN when connection to SC is > lost, but this probably opens up a whole new can of worms (what if connection > was lost to SC temporarily by accident (network hick-up, whatever)). > You cannot not have the messgae to indicate you have lost connection (for > troubleshooting purposes), so a way has to be found to make it more > inobstrusive. It's not difficult really. Simply differentiate, on the device, between -1) the device going into standby because it has lost connection, and -2) going into manual standby when you press the power button on the remote. If I have manually put the device into standby, I do not want to be seeing a connection warning message. Sure, if I then go to switch the device back on, show the error message all you want. But NOT in standby. Surely the SqB has enough internal clout to remember the time on its own? an't it just sync when the device is on?
(In reply to comment #26) > (In reply to comment #19) > > Surely the SqB has enough internal clout to remember the time on its own? an't > it just sync when the device is on? Unfortunately, no. The clock is just a screensaver running on the server, using the Squeezebox as a display. the Squeezebox has no internal clock of its own. I agree with your other comments though. It used to work like that; I don't see why they can't just change it back to the old behaviour.
(In reply to comment #20) > > The solution is easy - just dont show a message when the connection is lost > UNLESS the user tries to perform ANY action/keypress on their remote. > > The reason that would work and still have new users trouble shoot is simple - a > user wont drop their remote on the floor and ring CS instantly when the screen > blanked. The would press a button on the remote first, otherwise they would not > be using it. Yet the server can sleep quietly because no one is using the > player. This just seems so obvious that I can't believe there would be any debate about it. I, too, have SB3s next to my TV and in my bedroom. I have also been awakened by the sudden flash in the bedroom, although it doesn't seem to be as frequent with 7.3.3.
(In reply to comment #28) > (In reply to comment #20) > > > > The solution is easy - just dont show a message when the connection is lost > > UNLESS the user tries to perform ANY action/keypress on their remote. > > > > The reason that would work and still have new users trouble shoot is simple - a > > user wont drop their remote on the floor and ring CS instantly when the screen > > blanked. The would press a button on the remote first, otherwise they would not > > be using it. Yet the server can sleep quietly because no one is using the > > player. > This just seems so obvious that I can't believe there would be any debate about > it. I, too, have SB3s next to my TV and in my bedroom. I have also been > awakened by the sudden flash in the bedroom, although it doesn't seem to be as > frequent with 7.3.3. Agreed. So why are the devs being difficult? This is logical surely?
I tend to reboot my server in the evenings, eg. when applying OS updates. This causes all classic players to display the bright message. This annoys my wife who sees the message in the bedroom, even though she is not interested in my "alarm clock". I never display anything in max brightness; in fact I use min brightness for all display modes. And yet, when it really doesn't matter that connectivity has been lost (I originated the shutdown, so why should I need to be told by each player that the connectivity is lost), it's displayed really brightly. It would be preferable to automatically switch over to SN - this can drive the date time screensaver, and provide an alarm, etc, and then when the local server is back up, to switch back to it. I achieve this effect via a 3rd party plugin, but only when shutting down/rebooting/hibernating the server via the plugin. i.e. it will switch players over the SN before shutting down, and then when the server comes back up, it will pull players back to SC. This may be an alternative solution before displaying any type of error. i.e. if connectivity is lost, try to switch to SN. At a minimum, don't display the error message in bright text. Configuring the brightness for the message in the Setup screen is a waste of time if the setting is not persisted. If anything, display a little connectivity symbol on the screen (overlay at a certain position, using the current brightness level). Only display a specific message if the user tries to use the player when there is no connectivity.
I see the 7.4 release has not addressed this issue. Can we then assume that it's not going to be addressed?
Perhaps for 8.1? http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SoftwareRoadmap "IP3K (SB2/3/Classic, Transporter, and Boom) bugs (especially long-deferred bugs)"
All new Squeezebox products are likely to be based on the SqueezePlay platform. We do not plan to implement any further enhancements to the ip3k firmware or which are targeted specifically at ip3k-based products.
The bug was initially targeted for release at the end of 2008, but has sat around for close to 1.5 years, and gathered quite a few votes and forum conversations. Pity that the bug was introduced in the first place. It never used to do this; but was changed such that customers noticed that the server had lost connection. Unnecessary/pointless when the server has been purposely shut down, and very distracting at night. I guess that by not fixing this, more people will see a need to buy a new product. Unfortunately, some people won't buy new products if decisions to make changes like that are made without solutions to the problems that are incurred as a result. Is helpdesk support ending for ip3k players, or just development of specific fixes for those products?
Now that IP3K products are EOL, would Logitech consider opening the sourcecode to the firmware?
This is not an enhancement. The behaviour that existed pre 7.2 was fine. It was altered because of customer care needs, not users needs.
Sorry, this is not an enhancement request, this is to correct a badly thought through change done by Slim development team. If this is the way changes forced by development are resolved, including adjustable volume on analogue with fixed digital (Bug 9053) then I will not be buying any more SB products in case they migrate with feature changes that are detrimental to original specified product operations. This is an intolerable catch all attitude to bug that have been awaiting fixing around for 1.5 years.
So, just to recap: The spend two years stringing us along with "this is targeted for release number so-and-so" and then turn round and tell us that to fix what they broke would be an "enhancement" and that they can't be bothered because they'd rather sell new stuff (presumably similarly flawed) to new gullible customers who don't know what they're getting two years down the line. this, unfortunately, is typical of how Logitech run their business, and exactly the same approach as they take towards their Harmony Remote Control customers. They don't my future custom. Or yours.