Bug 1403 - Crossfade option: start new song at 100%
: Crossfade option: start new song at 100%
Status: REOPENED
Product: SqueezePlay
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Audio
: unspecified
: All All
: P2 enhancement with 39 votes (vote)
: ---
Assigned To: Felix Mueller
:
Depends on:
Blocks:
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2005-04-20 16:17 UTC by Will Irace
Modified: 2012-01-26 02:17 UTC (History)
8 users (show)

See Also:
Category: ---


Attachments
SAM crossfade settings window (38.72 KB, image/jpeg)
2012-01-26 02:13 UTC, Richard G Elen
Details

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Description Will Irace 2005-04-20 16:17:59 UTC
To make Squeezebox2 sound more like a radio station, I request an additional
crossfading mode that's as much an overlap as a crossfade.  Ten seconds (or
whatever) before the current song ends, I want to hear the next song start at
full volume while the old one fades out. There may need to be a limiter
algorithm as well to avoid distortion/overload.
Comment 1 Blackketter Dean 2005-06-10 17:25:12 UTC
excellent idea!
Comment 2 Blackketter Dean 2005-08-31 11:17:12 UTC
Vid, can you take a look at the client side of this?  
Comment 3 Blackketter Dean 2005-09-26 13:57:42 UTC
This is going to have to wait until after 6.2
Comment 4 Jon Heal 2006-03-16 02:53:47 UTC
If someone is going to take the time with this one, I would request a bit of additional intelligence be built into the function. Namely, examine the track on the album preceeding the next one to be played for a gap. If a gap is found, then start the song at 100%. If no gap is found, fade it in.

This would accomodate live albums, and such, that sound jarring if their tracks start at 100%.

Most of the time, I would prefer tracks to start at 100%, except in instances like I noted above.
Comment 5 Dan Sully 2006-08-04 16:23:45 UTC
This sounds like it's more up Richard's alley.
Comment 6 David Studley 2007-08-16 10:45:16 UTC
We just need to eliminate the fade-in part of crossfade to get this new type of fade.

This issue is being discussed once again on the boards.  Is 'richard' still the person responsible for the firmware upgrades? If not, should it be reassigned to someone else?

It seems the firmware is already doing all the things we are asking for.  Just a slightly differently combination.

Thanks!
Comment 7 Mark Wheadon 2007-08-17 02:13:35 UTC
I suspect it would be better if track two started 10 seconds (or whatever) from the end of track one with no fade-in, but track one then faded out in a period much less than 10 seconds (to avoid train wrecks).

Imagine, say, the start of track two happening 10 seconds before the end of track one, and the track one fade then taking one second - I suspect that would sound good for the typical "track one ends with a fade and track two starts suddenly" scenario that covers most combinations, and still sound OK when track one is still going strong at the end (live tracks, tracks from concept albums, tracks from dance / DJ albums).

But if the above makes it too complex / costly to implement in the firmware then just a simple "start to fade old track and start new track with no fade at the same time" option as described in the title of this bug would be still be good enough to be a real plus.

Mark
Comment 8 Richard Titmuss 2008-01-10 12:34:08 UTC
Reassigning Squeezebox firmware bugs to Felix.
Comment 9 Richard G Elen 2008-02-26 04:00:17 UTC
I think what I am looking for here, as others have suggested, is that the next track starts at full level a user-preset number of seconds before the end of the current track. I actually DO run a radio station using Slimserver as an automation system, and this would be great!

The addition of intelligence, as proposed, where the current track would be analysed and the exact moment the next track begins would be chosen based on that analysis, is an excellent one in my view, but I can live with the more basic version. 

I have seen some playout systems (eg MegaSeg) that offer a set of preset segue behaviours, such as fade-in over fade-out butt start over fade out, etc etc and that might be of interest - see the MegaSeg manual for details (megaseg.com).

I am not sure how this would interface with existing behaviour - in my case I use largely FLAC files and at the moment, when a track ends I hear the start of the next on the album before the actual "next" track in the playlist begins, which I presume is a bug.

--Richard E
Comment 10 FredFredrickson 2008-04-10 21:50:04 UTC
I highly agree- similar to the Crossfade plugin for winamp. I'm still looking for this feature if anybody's still on this one..
Comment 11 Felix Mueller 2008-07-25 01:03:41 UTC
This won't make it into 7.2
Comment 12 FredFredrickson 2008-09-02 07:23:50 UTC
I'm using the latest 7.3, which means crossfade works while synchronized. So I've started using the crossfade more than ever, and I have to say, this is a much needed addition. The current crossfade just isn't a normal crossfade. Winamp, Radio Stations, and the like all use 100% new song intro, while old song fades out.

I already voted for this bug, I just want to make sure it's not slipping. We've got a ton of votes here. If somebody gave me the basics on where to look for this- I'd go through the code myself...
Comment 13 Derek Brinkerhoff 2008-09-02 13:18:31 UTC
Please, for the love of all things holy, some kind soul PLEASE implement this feature in 7.3.  It has been pending so very, very, very long.  It would make a HUGE leap in the SqueezeCenter coolness factor.  I too have already voted for it, so all I can do is plead like the whiny crying crybaby that I am, and depend upon the mercy of the Squeezegods.
Comment 14 Felix Mueller 2008-11-06 09:23:29 UTC
Moving to 7.4
Comment 15 Richard G Elen 2008-11-06 09:27:43 UTC
Yes, it would be excellent to see this implemented. Thanks!
--RichardE
Comment 16 Felix Mueller 2008-11-06 09:40:01 UTC
Doh, there will be no 7.4 - moving it to 8.0
Comment 17 eeckhoj 2008-11-07 04:24:03 UTC
Ay, once again postponed - I've given up hope, frankly
Comment 18 Don 2009-01-25 19:59:15 UTC
The best way to implement this is to make it work similar to the old "Sqrsoft" crossfader in Winamp, which I used for about 13 years until I boguth a Squeezebox.  It has a number of settings, including "Radio" (which is all I used, being an old radio jock), "Party", etc

I understand that crossfading is done in the firmware of the Squeezeboxen, but can it really be that big of a deal to implement a "smat" crossfade?  The current c/f is just useless!
Comment 19 Don 2009-01-25 20:00:22 UTC
The best way to implement this is to make it work similar to the old "Sqrsoft" crossfader in Winamp, which I used for about 13 years until I boguth a Squeezebox.  It has a number of settings, including "Radio" (which is all I used, being an old radio jock), "Party", etc

I understand that crossfading is done in the firmware of the Squeezeboxen, but can it really be that big of a deal to implement a "smart" crossfade?  The current c/f is just useless!
Comment 20 Richard G Elen 2009-01-26 14:47:40 UTC
(In reply to comment #19)
> ...It has a number of settings, including "Radio" (which is all I
> used, being an old radio jock), "Party", etc

I've actually been using SqueezeCenter for internet radio playout and I would certainly use a "radio" setting not only for that but also for regular replay, having a broadcasting history myself. Great idea. The region where an ordinary crossfade is useful is where you're playing continuous albums - remixes or stuff like that - where you just need to paper over the cracks between the tracks. The rest of the time, a radio-style segue is much nicer-sounding. Look at the crosssfade profiles that are provided with playout software like Spacial's SAM Broadcaster and you can see what these all ought to be. 
Comment 21 James Richardson 2009-06-10 13:27:33 UTC
Targeting based on engineering discussion
Comment 22 FredFredrickson 2009-09-09 08:43:58 UTC
This is a pretty requested feature.. any news?
Comment 23 Nicola Fankhauser 2009-09-09 09:19:25 UTC
this feature request is now more than 4 years and 4 months old and was postponed from version 6.1 to 6.2, over 6.5, 7.2, 7.3, 7.4 up to 8.0, down to 7.4 (again) and is currently "planned" for 8.1.

I find this very strange, since it is the 5th most voted for feature and there is no (at least open) debate about its usefulness. still, something seems to hold back the firmware programming guys from just implementing it. what is it?
Comment 24 Alan Young 2010-05-07 10:52:53 UTC
All new Squeezebox products are likely to be based on the SqueezePlay platform.
We do not plan to implement any further enhancements to the ip3k firmware or
which are targeted specifically at ip3k-based products.
Comment 25 Will Irace 2010-05-07 11:37:55 UTC
Original filer here. Boo, hiss.
Comment 26 FredFredrickson 2010-05-07 12:13:06 UTC
So.. what about implimenting this feature on squeezeplay? And does this effect the SB Receivers? They're not squeezeplay based.. but the duet controller is.. 

I call shenanigans.
Comment 27 Andrea 2010-05-08 03:43:28 UTC
Wow, nice to know after I *just* bought three Squeezebox Booms. And why exactly should this benefit specifically ip3k products?

Sad to say that times really have changed since Dean originally answered "excellent idea!"
Comment 28 Mike Walsh 2012-01-25 16:58:45 UTC
allowing different styles of crossfading is absolutely a cool feature request.

my question is can this at least be done on new hardware/software players?  if so, i think the original filer, will irace, should reopen it.

secondly, how does the currently implemented crossfader work?  i assumed it simply overlapped the two songs at full volume; is this not the case?  is it actually doing fade outs and fade ins?
Comment 29 Will Irace 2012-01-25 17:17:52 UTC
The (In reply to comment #28)
> my question is can this at least be done on new hardware/software players?  if
> so, i think the original filer, will irace, should reopen it.

The original filer stopped using this platform long ago and is astonished this request is being discussed almost seven years later. :-)
Comment 30 Mike Walsh 2012-01-25 17:45:30 UTC
can't say i blame you the way things are going around here, but would you mind reopening it anyway for the rest of us?  only you can do so, as the original filer, and it seems to me the original request is still absolutely valid, even if ip3k products are no longer being updated.
Comment 31 Will Irace 2012-01-25 17:52:17 UTC
Reopening as requested. If I still used this platform I would still very much wish for this feature.
Comment 32 Richard G Elen 2012-01-26 02:13:44 UTC
Created attachment 7611 [details]
SAM crossfade settings window

Illustration shows the crossfade settings window used to configure Spacial's SAM Broadcaster broadcast automation system, suggested as a model for audio server/player behaviour at track boundaries.
Comment 33 Richard G Elen 2012-01-26 02:17:36 UTC
Irrespective of platform, the traditional way of handling crossfades - where the outgoing track is faded out and the incoming track is faded in, with two overlapping smooth curves and only the time is variable - is often inefficient and insufficient. 

What you actually require is an S-curve on the outgoing track followed by the new track coming in at more or less full volume. You need controls to manage the subtleties of how this is done, including the fadeout time and the fadein time and curve.

Currently the people with the most effective crossfade system IMO are Spacial with their SAM Broadcaster broadcast automation system. This is one of the leading playout automation systems in widespread use and their approach provides the kind of "radio station feel" that is desired by many listeners. How they handle crossfades is shown here:

http://support.spacialnet.com/wiki/index.php?title=Crossfading&redirect=no

I've also attached a JPEG of the SAM Crossfade Settings window.

I would suggest that this model is considered for possible implementation on all Logitech "Slim Devices" systems as I think it would improve the user audio experience significantly. It should not be limited to legacy platforms - this approach can be applied to any playback system.